By Lena Li
Chinese Immigrant Stories by Lena Li shares the hopes, dreams and struggles of Chinese immigrants in America. Follow this podcast in Mandarin on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube Podcasts and Substack.
The legal case of Google engineer Liren Chen in 2024 brought attention to the awareness and current situation of mental health issues among Chinese tech elites, especially male immigrants. In this episode, Lena interviews two new immigrants from the technology sector, Kevin from Silicon Valley and Michael from Seattle, as well as renowned psychologist Dr. Stephanie Wong, to delve deeper into the question: What are the challenges and dilemmas faced by Chinese male immigrant tech professionals in seeking mental health assistance?
- Host: Lena
- Producer: Lena
- Guest: Kevin, Michael, Stephanie J. Wong
- Translation: Lena
- Stephanie’s translation voice dubbing: Aurora Yang
Bullet Point:
00’40：Google engineer Liren Chen and Indian American engineer case review
03‘26: Kevin and Michael’s Story: New immigrants from the technology sector.
05‘22: The busy life of balancing work and family for male tech elite
06‘48: The working reality of the tech industry: Hours and pressure
08’13： About stress and anxiety
08’58: Reflections of post-80s immigrants on the state of mental health education in their upbringing environment
12’33: Kevin and Michael talk about how they deal with stress and emotions.
14‘03: Do tech men confide their emotional stress with their families?
15’16： American tech companies provide mental health resources and benefits to employees
15’59: The challenges of Chinese male immigrants in utilizing mental health resources.
16‘45: Kevin discusses the case of Liren Chen .
17’30: Dr. Stephanie discusses the stigmatization of mental health awareness within the AAPI community.
19’06: What is the “model minority myth”?
19’48: Dr. Stephanie| Dr. Stephanie discusses the challenges that Chinese immigrant male may face regarding mental health issues.
21’11: Dr. Stephanie | Dr. Stephanie provides advice on how to break the stigma surrounding seeking help for mental health issues.
21’41: | Ending
Podcast Content
*Intro
Lena: On January 26, 2024, a Google engineer from China, Liren Chen, was accused of beating his wife to death at their home. The news shocked the Chinese community across the United States. This 27-year-old tech elite graduated from Tsinghua University, a top university in China. His wife, Xuanyi Yu, was also an alumna and worked as a software engineer at Google. According to reports, a friend of the couple visited their home the day before the incident and noticed that Liren Chen’s mental state was worrying. Since his arrest, Liren Chen has been hospitalized and has missed several court hearings, citing “still receiving treatment in the hospital.”
Just one month later, a 37-year-old Indian American Silicon Valley engineer and startup founder named Anand Sujith Henry was suspected of murdering his wife and children before committing suicide, resulting in the tragic death of the entire family. The police discovered the bodies of the couple and their four-year-old twins in their home in San Mateo, along with a 9mm handgun and a loaded magazine.
These two cases of domestic violence bear striking similarities. Both suspects are new Asian immigrants, and both couples are graduates of prestigious universities and are seen as tech elites. Lives that should have been filled with happiness and fulfillment were tragically cut short by these incidents. Beneath the seemingly glamorous and successful surface, what went wrong in the lives and mental states of “winners in life” like Chen Liren and Henry? These successive tragedies have once again brought attention to the mental health issues among Asian male tech immigrants. Many people are beginning to realize that discussing mental health and seeking help seem to be particularly challenging within the Asian community.
Data shows that Asian Americans are 50% less likely to seek mental health services compared to other racial groups. Asian American men are even more reluctant than Asian American women to seek help for mental health issues. According to a report published by the American Public Health Association, Chinese immigrants who immigrated after the age of 20 are 1.5 to 3 times more likely to experience severe depression compared to those who immigrate before the age of 20.
Regarding this specific immigrant group and the rarely discussed issue of mental health in Asian culture, today I am honored to interview two Chinese tech immigrant men, Kevin from Silicon Valley and Michael from Seattle, as well as a psychologist, Stephanie Wong, to jointly explore this topic that needs more attention.
*Intro
Lena:
As new immigrants who have been in the U.S. for less than ten years, Kevin and Michael share very similar backgrounds. They both work in the highly competitive tech industry, have families, and have two young children. Faced with the busy and fast-paced work in the tech industry, along with the need to balance family, childcare, and various other issues, Kevin and Michael shared with me their daily lives, growth experiences, and their understanding of mental health issues. Perhaps their stories can help us better understand the challenges faced by Chinese male immigrants regarding mental health.
As a native of Shanghai, Kevin is also part of the highly educated and elite Chinese immigrant community.
Kevin:
I grew up and studied in Shanghai. Around 2015, I had the opportunity to come to the United States for work. After discussing it with my family, we decided to give it a try. At that time, we hadn’t decided to stay in the U.S. long-term or anything. I came first, and later my wife joined me. After arriving, we found it quite different from what we were used to. But in the end, we decided to stay. In the blink of an eye, many years have passed.
Lena:
Speaking about the differences in work environment and work culture he discovered after coming to the United States, Kevin described it to me like this:
Kevin:
The rhythm of work, interpersonal relationships among colleagues, some implicit rules in the workplace, and working culture are all different. There’s no good or bad. I’m just saying that, compared to back then in China, you might find more overlap in daily life with colleagues. On one hand, it’s because of the length of working hours, and on the other hand, because previously, back in China, most colleagues didn’t have children, and neither did I. As a result, the boundary between work and personal relationships might be more blurred. However, here in the United States, not only in the tech industry but generally speaking, people are very clear that my personal circle and my work circle are actually two different things. Unless there are exceptional cases where you meet people at work who are really like-minded and you hang out outside of work to watch sports, sing, or ski together, apart from that, colleagues are just colleagues; there’s no other interaction outside of work. Now, I’ve come to realize that this is the norm. If you ask me to go back to the environment in China, I might actually feel a bit uncomfortable.
Lena:
About a busy day in the life of a “tech elite male,” Kevin shared his daily routine with me.
Kevin: Typically, as soon as the kids wake up in the morning, I get up and start the morning routine. The one who needs to go to school will be sent to school. Currently, we still have elders at home helping to take care of the younger ones. By the time I’m ready to start work, it’s usually around 8:30 or 9 in the morning. I go to the office two days a week, and on the days I don’t go, I pick up the kids from school. When I come back home, sometimes he has extracurricular activities, so I stay out with him until it’s time for dinner. Sometimes, he has online classes, so I let him attend those while I continue working. Around 5:30 or 6 in the evening, I put work aside and spend time with the kids until they go to bed. After they’re asleep, I freshen up, tidy up, and then catch up on any work I couldn’t finish earlier. It’s quite challenging, especially without extended family support, and it feels overwhelming when you have more than one child, especially if the younger one isn’t yet in daycare or kindergarten.
Lena:
Unlike Kevin’s dual-income family, Michael’s family, from Anhui, China, doesn’t have the help of elders at home. Instead, his wife is responsible for full-time childcare.
Michael:
Basically, before 7 o’clock in the morning, I get up, prepare some breakfast for the kids, help them wash up, change clothes, and eat with them. After dropping them off at school, I drive to the office right at 9 o’clock. The second scenario is a bit more stressful. In the morning, I get up before 6 o’clock and work for an hour and a half to two hours before following the morning routine. In the afternoon, I head to the office at around 3 o’clock, pick up my eldest from school, meet my wife halfway, then pick up the youngest, and take both kids to the eldest’s extracurricular class. It’s extremely busy!
Lena:
It’s often said that the tech industry is busy and fast-paced. Kevin and Michael each described to me the busy scenes of their workdays.
Kevin:
Well, the thing is, at that company, I feel like the hours are indeed quite brutal. Over 70 hours a week, sometimes even 70 to 80 hours. So basically, it’s 10 to 12 hours a day. What’s particularly unhealthy is that now I can block off time for picking up and dropping off my kids, but back then, nobody will schedule meetings with you during that time. During that period before, it was quite tough because even if you block off time, people would still ignore it and throw meetings at you. You can choose not to attend, but they won’t reschedule because of that. However, you’ll miss context, and in the end, you still have to catch up. So, there’s this constant rush. Many people are online at midnight or even in the early morning, so there’s this peer pressure. When you ping someone, it seems like they’re always available, and when someone pings you, you have to immediately get up and put out the fire.
Michael：
At this company, because of the rapid business growth and high pressure, I work approximately 45 to 50 hours a week, you could say. That’s without counting any meal times or commute time, just pure work time, around 45 hours or so. On days when I go to the office, these three days are basically fully scheduled. On Wednesdays and Fridays, for example, I free up the entire block of time to write product documentation. This kind of time commitment varies from 10 to 20 hours a week. I might have half an hour for lunch each day, and then immediately after lunch, I start writing, continuing until around 4 or 5 in the afternoon. In this state, burnout can happen, but I feel like my burnout is more based on projects not progressing smoothly. I haven’t found a breakthrough yet, and it’s very easy to get discouraged, like I can’t deal with this anymore.
Lena：Speaking about the pressures and anxieties they face in their lives, Kevin and Michael had this to say.
Kevin:
I felt particularly anxious during the pandemic because the kids were at home all the time, and there was nowhere to go. They were at home 24 hours a day. Later, during meetings, everyone got used to holding their kids while attending meetings. I think this is a problem with the company’s culture. When the CEO or founder of a company is very results-oriented and focused on immediate outcomes, with a lot of tasks and tight deadlines, it can indeed create pressure.
Michael：
I don’t think the pressure comes from being the sole economic provider. I believe the pressure comes from the ratio between your daily expenses and your income. Of course, there’s the possibility of unemployment and the pressure that comes with it, but with only one source of income, our expenses are certainly managed to match that single income.
Lena:
Both Kevin and Michael, who grew up in China and were born in the 1980s, are now experiencing raising the next generation in the United States. Regarding the resources and awareness in the current American education system for children’s mental health, Kevin and Michael reflected on the lack of psychological health education they received during their own upbringing.
Kevin:
- In general, Chinese immigrants, especially males, may experience some cultural gaps in communication. One common aspect is the tendency to report good news but not bad news. Of course, I’m not sure how much the educational environment in China has changed now, but at least from my personal experience growing up, I feel that there are many things lacking in this regard. From my perspective, being able to attend top schools in big cities is already a very fortunate situation. However, even so, looking back and comparing it to the situation my son is in now, regardless of academic performance, because there are significant differences between China and the U.S. in this aspect. Generally speaking, there is a significant difference in the concept of “social graces”. In China, there is basically no such curriculum, and teachers do not pay attention to this aspect. At home, it’s often just emphasized that having good grades is all that matters. As for how to interact with people, regulate your emotions, these are all secondary concerns. It’s good if you understand these things, but if you don’t, there’s no one pushing you to understand them. You have to figure it out on your own later, or learn about them through other means.
- Michael: I feel that in the education system of East Asia, there is actually a lack of education on emotional intelligence. My wife and I have discussed this issue. In the United States, after giving birth, they start teaching children from a young age. For example, some picture books will tell you what “angry” means, what “frustrated” means, and you need to learn to distinguish your own emotions. Are you frustrated or angry? I couldn’t distinguish them clearly before. You might just feel “oh, I’m not happy,” but why are you not happy? I couldn’t tell. In terms of practicality, you need to be explicit. This aspect, I really like the communication style in the American or Western context where everything needs to be discussed openly. In East Asian culture, they particularly like implicitness, where everything is not brought to the table for discussion, and you have to digest and experience it on your own.
Kevin:
Relatively speaking, I can understand why Americans know who they are, what their strengths are, and how to interact with others. From a young age, they have a strong awareness that they are different from others, that they have strengths and weaknesses compared to others, and that it’s okay. This is something that, I feel, is not emphasized in the Chinese education environment. Even the idea of being different from others is subtly regarded as a negative thing, and there’s a tendency to conform to others and learn from them, right? The focus is on fixing one’s weaknesses rather than leveraging one’s strengths. It’s quite a different educational philosophy. Looking at the results, there are both positive and negative aspects, but at least in terms of mental health, managing one’s emotions, and dealing with competition, these aspects are generally not emphasized. Whether it’s from the family, school, or societal perspective, especially concerning so-called Chinese males, there isn’t much emphasis on these aspects.
Michael：I feel that, relatively speaking, companies in the United States tend to pay more attention to employees’ mental health. But I also think this is a relative concept. If you look at the work status of many people in my company, they are actually very, very busy. My director, for example, at his level as a director, he can still be pinged on any channel, and he’ll respond within 5 minutes. It’s like crazy! You know? And he’s also a father of four children. I don’t think I could handle it, but he can still perform pretty well. I think that’s also an okay state. Of course, the company provides various resources, whether it’s therapy or taking time off, and managers will consciously talk to you about your recent work pressure, whether you can handle it, and if there’s anything they can do to help alleviate it. There’s this kind of two-way communication. These mechanisms exist, and you can choose to use them.
Lena：
Have you ever used it yourself?
Michael：
No, haha. Because at the moment, I feel like I can still handle it. But have there been times when I felt very depressed? Of course, there have been.
Lena：
Did your parents talk to you about emotions or pay attention to your emotions when you were young?
Michael：
Not at all. Everything I just talked about, I only began to gradually summarize after entering the workforce. To be honest, it has nothing to do with my family.
Lena: Kevin and Michael also shared their personal experiences with me regarding how they deal with mental health issues and handle stress and negative emotions.
Kevin:
For me personally, I’ve never placed too much weight on work pressure. Even when facing issues like layoffs, it hasn’t caused me significant mental stress. I’m the type of person who, once I shut down my computer, I don’t dwell on work. There’s quite a variation among individuals; some people just can’t forget about work, and whatever happens during the day stays on their mind. I understand why aspects like life, parenting, and family might not necessarily convert into stress, but they can lead to some anxiety. Exercise, eating, and sleep are actually the most direct remedies. How much sleep do I get in a day now? I don’t know, five or six hours is already good, and there’s also less time for communication between spouses. Sometimes, because of my own state of mind, talking to family or communicating can be quite stressful. It’s like a cumulative effect; the more tired you are, the more likely things will go wrong, and you forget this or that, leading to a blame game. Family matters are actually quite trivial, but when many things pile up, it becomes a kind of stress.
Michael：
I think the most important thing is not to consume yourself internally. I believe that under this traditional Asian, or East Asian cultural context, which also exists in Europe and America, societal culture has certain expectations of you: as a male, you should be strong, always stand up, and protect your family. These expectations, I think, are cross-cultural. As an individual, my advice is not to be hijacked by these societal cultural expectations. Whether you live well or not has absolutely nothing to do with whether you meet these social expectations, not at all. To put it in a cliche way: “As water reflects the face, so one’s life reflects the heart.” Firstly, you need to have self-awareness of your emotions, which is actually something I myself am not very good at.
Lena:
When it comes to whether they would confide in and share their psychological pressures with family members, Kevin and Michael said the following.
Kevin:
I rarely discussed this with my family. We’ve talked about it before, but I found discussing it with family members didn’t help me. I still have to find my own solutions. Everyone’s emotional needs may be different. Relatively speaking, women may need something like a support group more, whether it’s family or a social support group to confide in. Even if you write things down and post them online. Generally, my understanding is that men discuss these issues less. They are more likely to internalize them and dissipate them by going for a run, driving, listening to music, playing video games, etc. Like Americans, they have many support groups, whether in-person or online, where people may not even know each other, but they share and feel a sense of belonging, saying “I’m not alone,” realizing that others feel the same way.
Michael：
Especially in smaller companies, there may not be as robust or dedicated HR functions specifically for this. But at least you know there are many resources available in your HR portal that you can access. There may even be some benefits, such as the company providing you with subscriptions or credits for consultations. Some companies may even go as far as promoting wellness days. In a larger company I worked for previously, every six months or every quarter, they would add an extra day off for the employees. It’s all about employee benefits.
Lena: For Chinese male immigrants, even if companies provide such free services, how many of them will actually utilize these resources when they need them? Will cultural differences in the choice of psychological counseling services pose challenges for them?
Kevin:
I have tried this therapy, the one provided by the company. But perhaps the therapist I encountered at the time wasn’t quite effective; each therapist is different, and you might have to try several before finding the one whose working style suits you best. I didn’t try many, I just felt after a few sessions that it wasn’t helping much. Maybe the context and culture are more important, at least for me. Language wasn’t a big issue, but if the therapist could understand that you come from this background, and that you’re a Chinese immigrant, especially with a family and children, it might be more targeted.
Lena：Kevin also expressed his views on the family tragedy that occurred with Liren Chen and Henry.
Kevin:
To a large extent, I think it’s due to a lack of awareness. From childhood, in school, and in the work environment in China, you don’t feel like you have someone to confide in if you have a problem, or what kind of resources can help you. So, it develops into a habit where you prefer to solve things on your own. The reason why there are such extreme cases may also be because in our community, there’s a lack of this awareness. By the time the issue reaches a critical point, it’s already beyond redemption, and only then do people become aware that there’s a problem. When faced with problems, we should somehow be prepared to talk about them. These are things we didn’t experience growing up, aspects of parenting that we’re experimenting with and learning now, like how to communicate with children.
Lena:
Regarding the attitudes towards mental health and the longstanding social issues among Asian, particularly Chinese male immigrant groups, I also had the opportunity to interview Stephanie Wong, a seasoned psychologist, podcaster, and author. Stephanie is not only a clinical psychology expert, but also the founder of the podcast “The Color of Success,” which focuses on Asian and Asian American communities and ethnic minorities. The podcast has been honored with the Golden Crane Podcast Award from the Asian American Podcasters Association and was recognized as the Best Mental Health Podcast in 2021. Additionally, she is the author of the bestselling book “Cancel the Filter.”
Stephanie：
I think it’s been an ongoing issue, and what brought me into the field was actually going to high school with a majority of AAPI-identifying individuals, where we lost a student to suicide. It was very difficult because there were no resources available. It wasn’t really talked about; it was kind of like business as usual. It really started me on this path of understanding what’s important for students as well as our community is to talk about these things. But there is more exposure to this, but the model minority myth, right? You just don’t talk about emotions or speak out. There’s a lot of internalized guilt, shame, and racism that happens, and so we really don’t want to ignore how we feel. But there’s a whole bunch of different factors that play into, you know, culturally, historically, that really prevent us from seeking help from a therapist. Not only are we taught not to talk about emotions within many of our families, but if there is severe mental illness, they don’t want to talk about it because there are labels like “you’re crazy,” like “oh, here’s the crazy uncle that went through things.” But in fact, many individuals are struggling with severe mental illness but also depression, anxiety, and psychosocial needs.
Lena：
Stephanie just mentioned the “model minority myth,” which is actually a widespread phenomenon in society. If you’re not familiar with this term, it refers to a stereotype that certain minority groups, especially Asian Americans, are considered “model” minorities because of their outstanding performance in education, careers, and economics. This myth typically includes perceptions of academic and occupational success, diligence, self-discipline, and economic stability. Although these views may seem positive on the surface, they actually have negative implications for Asian Americans and other minority groups. For example, they can lead to the neglect of individual differences, create pressure and expectations for Asian individuals, foster division among minority groups, and mask racial discrimination.
Stephanie:
You’re really speaking of intersectionality, right? Of being male, having immigrant status, so first generation perhaps—I think generation makes a huge difference. I actually, for private practice, mostly see tech professionals. The positive part is that I’ve had many Asian American males come to the practice, and again, it varies by generation. So what we’re seeing is that not only males, but folks are in the sandwich generation now. They’re not only raising children, but they’re taking care of their aging parents, their grandparents, and so that’s an additional stress. But many times, the population you’re talking about specifically, they may need and become a cultural broker to bridge the gap between the generations if their parents or grandparents are coming over with them or if they’re planning on having them over and living with them.
The other part is it really depends on their perspective. There are different rates of acculturation that happen. There is intersectionality with perhaps, again, not to overgeneralize, but American cultural values in the workplace. Being in tech, it’s a fast-paced environment; you have to continue to grind. There also may value assertiveness or speaking out. And not only that, but our stimulus value is such where people make assumptions, have microaggressions, and depending on language acquisition or presenting with an accent could be looked at in various ways. So I think at home it’s like keep going, at work, keep going, and if you’re not kind of feeling validated for the work that you’re doing in both settings, it can be super challenging.
Lena:
Speaking of challenges faced by Asian male parents, especially Chinese immigrants raising the next generation in the United States, and particularly on how to encourage the next generation to actively address mental health issues, Stephanie also provided her own suggestions.
Stephanie:
Similarly, my children have learned about meditation, about stress management. There’s now a counseling center on campus, and now there are Asian American children who are not honest about their assessment because of these, you know, stigmatized aspects. But personally and professionally, I feel it’s our responsibility as later generations and as our kids grow up to normalize the conversation. So, around the dinner table, instead of asking, “How was your math quiz?” it’s like, “How are you feeling about your math quiz? How are you feeling about studying?” Putting that in a normal dinner conversation is really helpful because it shows, “Hey, we’re human, we can talk about these. It’s a safe space.”
Talking about emotions, parents often keep things close to their chest, but also saying, “Yeah, you know, I’ve experienced that at work too, when I’m about to present in a larger setting, it can be kind of nerve-racking.” Kids are very intuitive. Learning from our kids too is very, very important in terms of they have picked up skills that maybe we weren’t taught, and they have maybe the language, and don’t assume that they don’t have the language or the tools to have these conversations.
The other part is kind of changing the perspective that health is very integrated. It’s not just about medical doctors and the physical component, but when we’re looking at health to really identify that there’s a mind-body connection. You can even do small simple interventions of if I’m feeling x, where am I feeling it in my body, and is this like a heart attack because if you go to the ER and they’re saying like no, everything is fine and your last physical was fine, then really starting to think about what thoughts and emotions are going on.
The other part is starting to connect with culturally humble services, and by that, I mean those that are not assuming they know who you are based on how you look or these labels of AAPI, but someone who’s willing to learn about your experience, connect with people that are culturally humble, and use resources. I mean, that’s what the whole point of The Color of Success is, destigmatizing these conversations and seeing that there are people willing to have these conversations in our community.
Lena：
In the United States, May is Mental Health Awareness Month, as well as Asian Pacific American Heritage Month. As Chinese immigrants, especially males, the culturally ingrained neglect of mental health issues passed down through generations, and the stigma associated with seeking mental health help in society, make it difficult for them to walk the path of improving their own mental health. Breaking the educational model of the previous generation’s complete lack of emotional expression skills, and finding a balance in the pressures brought about by the intersectionality of technological development and modern life today, is a long-term endeavor that requires continuous effort, reflection, and practical action to bring about change. Perhaps through our efforts, our next generation will do better in this regard.
If you are experiencing challenges in mental health and emotions, actively use the resources around you to seek help. If you feel that someone around you is also going through similar issues, encourage and help them find resources instead of remaining silent. Because the cost of silence is much higher than we imagine.
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